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This is an open forum for YU students to post their opinions of the use of Mesorah at YU. If you would like to post a message, go to our submission form.

Name: Adam Rosenstein
Elliot for English Comp is a great choice. He gives good books to read, only three short ones, and is fair in grading. class attendance for, the most part, is optional.

Name: Adam Plotch, former YUnik (96 - 98)
Goodness gracious...some of the posts here are bewilderingly idiotic. The despicable, deplorable, shameful "wrongness" of mesorah is, irrespective of what the actual halacha may be, absolutely apparent to any half-witted individual who truly considers the issue. But bribes blind the eyes of the righteous, to paraphrase Devarim, and if you have a stake in the matter your better judgment may be clouded. Hence, I will illustrate the essential problems with this horrible, shameful "tradition": 1) The first reason is obvious. Your parents - or whoever/whatever organization put up the money for your scholarship - did so so that you could learn Torah U'Madda. If you cheat on tests - and boys, studying questions from old tests that will be vaddai used in your own exam is unequivocally cheating - you are blatantly misusing the funds your parents/scholarship allocated for your education. There's just no two ways about it. That's thievery, gneivat daat, whatever you want to call it. Further, contrary to popular belief, YU actually rejects some undergraduate applicants; it can only accept so many students. If you were priveliged enough to have matriculated to this fine institution and spent your years regurgitating information rather than actually learning then you've used up a spot someone else could've used more productively. An opportunity for an honest individual to pursue a religious and secular education in this uniquely conducive environment is gone, permanently. And it's your fault. 2) College degrees and passing grades imply a familiarity with/completion of the work requirements for college level course(s) - grades being commiserant with the amount of work you put in/level of success you've achieved. Attaining high grades via the use of mesora constitutes blatant deception. Consider all the decisions that might be made about you for which grades are a central criterion; employment, graduate school acceptance, grants, even possibly potential spouses. Granted, grades don't follow you around for the entirety of your life, but for the first few years after graduation they are of paramount importance. Having a high GPA implies that you are an intelligent, highly motivated, hard worker, and you will reap rewards for such labor. But if you're not worthy of such rewards because you mesoraized your tests, then not only are you being gonev the daat of the person who's giving you the rewards, you're stealing them away from someone who really deserves them. 3) While many students in universities all over the world might also use "mesorah" to do well on tests, they do it because of the same temptations and taavot for success some YU students do it for. Still, few people in the universe, of any age, would consider it objectively ethical. On top of that, supposedly religious people are held to a much higher standard than the masses. If word of this practice by some members of the YU community ever reached the outside world, it would be a hillul Hashem of epic proportions. Part of being an or lagoyim is setting an example of such high moral character that others will want to emulate us. If we show the world our tzitzis, our tefillin, and the constipated looks on our face when we daven but far less scrupulousness when it comes to exams we will cast aspersions on our Torah. Look, you're not in school to impress your professors. If they're giving the same tests year in and year out then they deserve to be fired and have their teaching licenses revoked (if such things exist) but that still doesn't give you the right to use mesora. Granted, some professors are more difficult than others, so there can be no absolute standard for grades. But the thinking is that all balances out at the end - unreasonably difficult professors are balanced out by overly easy ones, with the statistics altered to account for the more challenging universities. But nobody accounts for an institution in which a significant minority of professors recycle old and accessible exams. YU is now considered one of the best universities in the nation. If this practice becomes more widespread and continues on, it will inevitably come back to haunt the institution and all religious Jews. I implore the students to stop, as well as the university to do a thorough investigation of its employees and force them to either cease self-destructive behavior or get out of the university. Those who fail to comply should be booted, irrespective of their age, seniority or brilliance. Though I've not heard R' Schachter's psak on the issue from his own mouth, because I respect him as an eminently intelligent, righteous, wonderful leader I am willing to bet that in light of these issues he'd consider it wrong to go on as it's currently practiced. I would be very curious to hear a thorough explanation of his position on this matter by someone still at YU who sees him regularly.

Name: Anonymous
AS is true with many things, messorah can be good or bad, depending on how it is used. ex: a certain amount of salt in one's diet is necessary, but too much can cuase heart disease and high blood pressure leading to death. messorah can be usefull as a study guide for those who went to class, took notes, listened etc. for them messorah provides a little bit of assistance. but for the ones (and you know who you are) who show up to class minimally and for exams, messorah isn't just "a little bit of assistance". for them messorah is simply their easy way out of effort. (granted they spend a little effort trying to get the messorah, but it's misplaced.) again, i think that messorah can be good or bad. it just depends on how it's used.

Name: Anonymous
If teachers rely on mesorah as their excuse not to teach the curriculum then the university should withhold their salary- or just fire them. We pay a lot of money the least teachers could do is teach.

Name: Anonymous
The whole computer science department should be reviewed. Mesorah is rampant and students can graduate without knowing jack about computers. I feel bad for the graduate who can't get a job after paying tens of thousands of dollars to YU. You can't convince a company that you know computers based on your gpa you have to prove it to them- as far as i know there's no mesorah for job interviews.

Name: Anonymous
R. Schachter believes in honesty more than anything else. He has said many times that people twist a psak to fit their own needs. If (and I stress "if")R. Schachter did give someone a hetter how do you know that his situation is the same as yours. Maybe R. Schachter will tell you that for you it is assur to use mesorah. A psak many times is specifically for a unique situation.

Name: YC Senior
If there was no such thing as Mesorah then there would be no such thing as a "Graduate" of the Illustrious "Sy Syms School of Business"-gimmee a break, and get off all your high horses.

Name: Anonymous
Folks, it's as simple as this. If you really don't believe in Mesorah, go to the Real press. The Times or The Post, for instance. Then YU would have no choice but to do away with it. It seems political pressure is the only stimulus for change around here. (As opposed to, for instance, oh say, MORALITY.)

Name: Anonymous - Soph.
While mesorah might be technically mutar (kudos to Rav Shechter), this issue is significantly more than just a technical issue. For those of us who came to YU/Stern as a stepping stone to graduate school, or as a way of getting a college degree in a Jewish environment, and have no desire to broaden their intellectual horizons, mesorah is an excellent way to coast through college without working. For the rest of us who believe that getting and education is just as important as attending college, using mesorah seems particularly hypocritical. While mesorah is a great way of testing yourself to see if you have mastered the information, in no way should it be used as a substitute for studying. Even if the professors are lazy (as many of our esteemed faculty are) we, the students, have no excuse to waste our parent's money, while rotting our brains. To all those who claim that using mesorah provides a way to learn (presumably Torah) more, I beg you - leave this institution, find some yeshiva and do college at night. Do not bring down the standards of or this University because you refuse to work.

Name: Anonymous (Jr)
People seem to think that mesorah is cheating. I would like them to explain exactly how it's cheating. Cheating is breaking the rules of the university. As far as I know, this university has never forbade their students from looking at previous exams. You can claim that a person is cheating himself by using mesorah or even Geneivat Daat (from the Prof), however, isn't the Prof who is teaching a class like that also cheating his class? It's one thing for a student to waste the money he is spending on his education, however for a teacher to waste it, might be considered a real monetary Geneiva. However, this point is all really moot. The issue of Mesorah is public knowledge. If a Prof. gives the same exam over and over again, he/she should realize that students will get access to it as we are resourcefull creatures. People who are hung up over mesorah, come off to me as being self rightous. It really annoys me, as these people probably wouldn't use study guides for ETS's tests, or would they? My guess is that they would. ETS also sells previous tests. Guess what. If you study well enough with all the material that is available to you, you will do well and will recognize a lot of the questions.

Name: Clarification...
Clarification of the previous submition: Using the Mesorah to study more Torah means using the Mesorah for a Lit. class in order that I might spend an additional hour in the Beis Midrash. It does not mean using "Mesorah" notes for shiur, whatever those might be...

Name: U.G. (Senior)
"Mesorah is mutar"-Rav Schachter The issue of Mesorah is not an issue of Halakha. It is an issue of hashkafa. Do we want to perfect ourselves as human beings, by learning the Hokhma that the Holy One put in this world in the guise of sciences and humanities, or do we want to be shallow, uncultured people, who merely manipulate God's world for our own gain. This applies to the person who uses Masorah in order to learn more accounting, as well as he who uses it learn more Torah. The Rambam would not approve. Rav Hirsch would not approve. Rav Kook would not approve. And (you saw this coming...) the Rav zt'l would not approve. Thus the question remains: If I use Mesorah to study more Torah, am I truly a "ben-Torah"? Do I attempt to understand what the Ribbono Shel Olam put in His world and how I might gain from this knowledge? Or do I pretend that the sciences and humanities are the product of some phantom Yetzer Hara whose entire goal in the world is to "batel" my precious Torah. The answer is clear. One need not be a Torah-U-Maddah idealogue to recognize that whatever God created he did "Lichvodo". Our study of the world, then, must be an attempt to realize this Kavod, and discover it where it lies hidden. The Mesorah hinders us from realizing Gods presence in the world.

Name: M. Balas
Maybe this is just me, but isn't the point of having a test or a paper a way to demonstrate that the student has the ability to use the knowledge gained from a course. As long as a professor's tests require simple spitback, Mesorah is a valid means to getting an A. After all, these tests simply require memorization, something that does not have any constructive long-term effects. However, if the tests that professors give require more than rewriting what the teacher said in class, then there is really no reason for Mesorah to exist. There are millions of applications to the prblems in all fields. Take it from someone who has taken G. Chem and Orgo. Because these professors concentrate more on the applications of the material taught in class, the students (for the most part) are better equipped to understand the material and do well on more important tests, such as the MCAT or DAT (and trust me, a below 4.000 average does not knock you out of the graduate school hunt). Similarly, Liberal Arts and Math majors in YC tend to succeed on graduate school admissions tests because they are taught to understand the material rather than just memorize it. However, for courses for which teachers require simple reiteration of class notes, I admit, Mesorah is the way to go. It is not really cheating since chances are that the teacher knows that Mesorah is out there. Finally, if the teacher can give the type of test for which Mesorah can be used, clearly the teacher doesn't care about whether or not the students understand and are able to utilize knowledge, since the course require a very limited amount of subjective analytical skill. And if such a teacher doesn't care about robbing the students of a quality education, why should his/her students care, especially when they realize the futility of their professor's methods?

Name: Anonymous
If you can get the Right mesora, you can get by in the real world. Mesorah is not an easy way out. It's an agressive battle which involves research, production, and serious review. It is because of the hunt for Mesorah that YU students do well when they leave. It is an educational process far superior to the one given by our teachers. If you can get the Mesorah you can get anything in life.

Name: soph
For those who seem to have decided that if a teacher gives the same test every year he or she is lazy. One of the bible teachers, Rabbi Orlean, never lets us keep our tests. His logic? If he has to draw up a new test every year, on the same material, then the questions are going to have to be different. As there is only so much information taught in the class it can be assumed that the questions will get progressively more difficult as the teacher thinks up new things to ask on the same information. the tests would get more devious, and people would start assuming that the teacher is "out to get them". If you want proof, look at the orgo tests. ( or some might even say the G-chem tests.) The P.C. way of describing the tests would be intellectually engaging. the teacher knows there is mesora, so he will not give the same questions twice. Five years ago, 50% of the class was in the A range, last year?

Name: Anonymous
allow me to paint a scenario that may put things into perspective. professor quimby has been with the university for about 30 years and as expected, he gives the same 1967 spring final. the students in the class obviously know this juicy bit of information, they all have the exam, in addition they have all the answers that some genius typed up 6 years ago, so all they have to do is memorize; an entires semesters worth of lectures.when professor quimby reviews the exams, he is overcome with joy, afterall, everyone knew the material that he taught cold. so whats so bad you may ask, the six essays that required memorization covered almost everything taught. the students know the subject well, isnt that the goal here? but here is where the perfect plan fail. when it comes time for grades, professor quimby can not be soo generous. sure everyone deserves an A, but how would the professor look if his whole class got A's? to solve the problem, professor quimby decides to play a game of dice, if he rolls a 2-4 you get an A, 5-7 is a B, 8-10 is a C and 11-12 is a D. afterall the only thing that can distinguish one paper from the next, is the name at the top, everyone wrote the same answers! i dont know about you, but i sure as heck dont want my grade based on a game played in las vegas.

Name: Anonymous
It's ridiculous that someone who has ACCESS to "Mesorah" has the possibility to recieve a better grade.

Name: Anonymous
Mesorah is mutar. 'Nuff said. R' Schechter said it was. If the teachers are dumb enough to give out the same tests year after year, then that's their problem. Honestly, even with non-mesorah courses, the same material is taught annually, so old tests serve wonderfully as study guides and to see the methodology of the professor.

Name: Anonymous

"I don't think computer science exams stay the same from year to year."

I guess you've never taken Aizik. In one course, the midterm was an exact copy of the one from two years prior, the test was open notes and everyone had the answers from the grader from two years earlier, and the current grader was in the class. In another course, someone pointed out a typo on the test, and Aizik appologized, saying that he had been up until 3 the night before making up the test. The same typo was on the test from two and four years earlier. How's that for honesty and integrity in education?

Name: Anonymous
The problem of "mesorah" robbing students of an education is entirely the fault of lazy teachers who don't feel like coming up with new test & homework problems every year. If a student doesnt do his work eventually he will fail out of school. The same standard should apply to teachers.

Name: Yoni Bak
People who don't use mesorah lose out because they receive a lower grade than they deserve, as compared to the mesorah users. People who use mesorah are cheated out of an education. Though they aren't "forced" to use mesorah, it is unfair to them if they don't use mesorah while other members of the class are using it. By mesorah i am referring to the practise of some teachers to use old exams and homework problems to test current students. There is nothing wrong with distributing old tests if you just want to provide sample questions to the students. The problem is when teachers naively expect students to study for a class when all they need to do is get answers to a few questions & memorize them. Though other colleges also have a problem with "mesorah" (though surely they have other names for it), that is hardly a justification for its presence (there is also a drug problem at many other colleges). The McDonalds analogy I read on this message board (comparing g-d's tolerance of Macdonalds to our need to tolerate mesorah) is completely illogical. There are many things which exist, apparently with g-d's permission that we are supposed to shun. It is still a case of "lo titen michshol" if someone hires a prostitute to come up to someone else room even though g-d seems to allow the existence of prostitutes. In summary, mesorah is a plague that infects Yeshiva's education. As a former student I can now look at the matter objectively and not in terms of "what will get me through my tests this week." In the long run students get hurt. They should demand that teachers spend the time to come up with new material to test how well students have mastered the entire scope of the class - not merely the few facts used on last years test

Name: Yoni Bak
P.S. I took Computer Science with Breban & the final was 100% mesorah.

Name: Anonymous
I think mesorah should be banished from the face of the earth. and destoryed form the memory of all human beings.

Name: Anonymous
You are all a bunch of wackos, that my friends is the bottom line. You, as well as I, all use mesorah. If you don't, well then in the words of my great Rosh Yeshiva, you are either stupid, or gay! Really though stop being so disengenuous to yourselves. ALL colleges have some sort of "mesorah". What you don't think at Queens all the jews take the same classes becuase they have the tests from previous years?! It even happens at far more "superior" institutions, Columbia for example most ceartinly has their own "mesorah". So I want you all to get off your high horses and JUST USE IT!

Name: Chananya Weissman
I don't follow the logic of "by recycling old tests, the teacher demonstrates that he doesn't care if you cheat". By the same token, if God sticks a McDonald's on your block, it should be all right to eat there. As for "lo sitayn michshol", get off it. (I'll never stop being amazed by the things people come up with to justify themselves!) It's not as if one can get his hands on an old test without making some active effort to do so. Besides, the fact that someone makes it possible for you to screw up is not an excuse to take advantage of the opportunity. Finally, what's so terrible about a teacher the same test for 30 years? The same questions that were relevant to American history 30 years ago are just as relevant today. I don't think computer science exams stay the same from year to year.

Name: Anonymous
Let's clarify what "mesora" means. Many teachers readily provide copies of old tests. On the theory that test-taking improves the learning process, then you learn more by taking several old tests as well as the current one than you do by merely preparing for the one test.

Some teachers don't provide old tests because they only have one test. Some of them have been using the same test for 30 years. I don't really see any compelling reason to encourage said professor's laziness. Having people dishonestly getting a copy of a test is bad, but calling attention to deficient professors is a good thing, and will in the long run improve our education.

Of course, mesora can also refer to old notes, which I don'r think anyone would complain about. Some schools actually have lecture notes available either in books or online. This is college - it's up to you if you want to go to class. Of course, if a professor can't manage to add any value to the class notes or book by talking for 75 minutes, then perhaps attention should be called to this as well.

Name: Yehuda Burns
Hey - why is someone too chicken to put their name on the statement, "In a school where Torah U'Madda is the slogan, isn't it ironic that most of the guys who spend their evenings learning believe it acceptable to cheat?" A sincere dialogue in favor of a meaningful education is both meaningful helpful, but if is used as a forum for personal accusation then it loses its effectiveness.

Name: yc guy
Mr. Plotch has a lot to say, but there are two sides of the coin. An educator SHOULD NOT just be "doing his job" by coming in, giving assignments & marking them. And "educator" must educate, and therefore is CHEATING himself and the minds in which he is intrusted to fill with knowlege, and give them the oppurtunity to "get by on paper" without having to come to class, and acing the final by using old tests.

Name: Adam Plotch
It boggles the mind to think that anyone who purports to be religious could possibly believe in the propriety of mesorah. Does the Shulchan Aruch have to state explicity that cheating on college examinations is forbidden for people to believe it? Not everything is stated in clear-cut black and white, folks. A little halachic extrapolation is sometimes necessary - nowhere in the gemara does it say directly (to my knowledge anyway) that pushing an elevator button is wrong - but the framework and principles of the forbidden actions involved are there, and modern-day ingenuity takes care of the rest.

Cheating on tests is no different. Fortunately, it doesn't take a bakki in Shas to realize how wrong it is. Let's take the very familiar concept of G'nevat Da'at. Even if you argue that because professors knowingly give repeat tests they exempt themselves from the category of those from whom daat could be gnevahed, how about considering the opinion of the people paying for your education, your parents? They pay their hard earned money to Yeshiva University so that you can LEARN something, presumably both secular and religious subjects, otherwise they probably wouldn't approve of your going to this school. If they're paying for you to acquire knowledge, and you're not acquiring it because you're cheating on your tests, then by using mesorah, you are effectively stealing from and cheating your parents. The same applies to monies you may receive from scholarships or loans. Somebody is donating/loaning their money for the express purpose of your education. Unless your parents or scholarship provider agree to give you money even though you will use it to cheat, you are in turn taking their money, smiling, saying thank you, and going ahead and using it for your own manipulative purposes. Not very religious-sounding to me.

Okay. But let's say you're financially independent. Or you've sat down with your parents and all of you have come to the mutual conclusion that education is irrelevant, and you're only paying for grades. Fine. So you're not cheating your parents anymore. But what are grades for? Hanging up your GPA on the wall and bragging that you are a magna cum sum laude. Lovely. But primarily, grades are used by potential employers to determine worthiness of being employed by that pivotal first-job-out-of-college. If your GPA was beefed up by grades received but not earned, you are painting a false picture of yourself, and may potentially receive rewards (jobs) you don't deserve at the expense of others who do. Imagine that. A whole lifetime can be changed because somebody didn't get the job he deserved, because you stole it from him with your phony-baloney grades. What can be more blatanly unreligious than that? If you presented a potential employer with a resume made up of entirely falsified credentials, and were hired on account of those lies, instead of someone else who deserved the job, would you consider that to be ever-so-slightly irreligious? How is this different.

Look, this ain't seventh grade anymore boys. We're not doing work solely for the sake of pleasing our teachers - in fact, we shouldn't be doing it for that sake at all. They have nothing to gain or lose by the grades we get. And we are in their classes volunatarily - college is not compulsory, it is for our own benefit. To suggest that if professors give repeat tests that justifies students cheating because the professor knows it will happen is ludicrous. Ideally they should be able to walk out of a classroom in which students are taking an exam without it affecting the honesty of the students. And if you can't deal with that, maybe it's time you focused a little bit more on studying mussar. And don't use mesorah.

Name: Anonymous
I believe that any teacher who gives a test that can be studied for with just Mesorah is cheating the students. Last I checked, the point of College is to receive an education, and learn a thing or two along the way. The use of Mesorah brings the level of the classes back to High School where memorization, and not knowledge is the key. I think when used as a study aid, mesorah can be useful, but any class that can be passed with the sole use of Mesorah is not worth having in a 'top tier' university.

Name: Anonymous
I think the original poster had it dead-on. If something doesn't explicitly break a halacha, does that mean it's right?? Ever heard of integrity? If you were to ask the teacher if you were allowed to use the old tests, would he/she say yes? Try it. And forgetting the halachik aspect, aren't you interested remotely in learning the material? Have some self-respect.

Name: Happy Mesora User
Why do you think there's a contradiction between being frum and using mesorah? If a teacher cares that the guys shouldn't use old tests to do well, then (s)he would either not return the tests or not give the same tests. In that case, you'd have to stea l the tests to have them, and nobody would allow that. But if the teachers DO give the same tests, and they DO give back the tests, then it must be OK with them. So if it's OK with them, and these "frummies" aren't breaking any halachos, why are YOU the only one it's not OK with?!

Name: Anonymous
In a school where Torah U'Madda is the slogan, isn't it ironic that most of the guys who spend their evenings learning believe it acceptable to cheat? However, the blame isn't entirely their's. Don't place a stumbling block... The school as a whole sho uld not turn its head the other way as teachers give the EXACT SAME TESTS year in and out. You would think they don't even believe in Dr. Lamam's Torah U'Madda. ;)

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